WEBVTT 00:00:00.166 --> 00:00:05.171 One of the things that we've found since I've been at Latham is how synergistic 00:00:05.213 --> 00:00:08.758 the energy and infrastructure group has been with the emerging company group. 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.553 And how we've had deals that 00:00:11.553 --> 00:00:14.973 we've had to call that group up and talk to them about, 00:00:15.598 --> 00:00:18.643 types of project finance or other fundings that we don't typically see. 00:00:18.810 --> 00:00:19.060 You're right. 00:00:19.102 --> 00:00:22.063 I mean, you have to take a fully holistic approach, right? 00:00:22.105 --> 00:00:25.483 So coupling with our industry expertise and our in our various practice 00:00:25.525 --> 00:00:28.903 groups, right, so you can solve not just one piece of the puzzle, 00:00:28.987 --> 00:00:32.365 you can provide solutions for the entire project lifestyle 00:00:32.407 --> 00:00:35.410 in a commercially feasible manner. 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:44.502 Hello and welcome to the Latham Tech Podcast, 00:00:44.544 --> 00:00:47.672 where we survey the latest trends emerging from the world of tech and explore 00:00:47.714 --> 00:00:51.468 their impacts on your company, both the opportunities and the risks. 00:00:51.509 --> 00:00:54.721 In this episode, we'll be discussing the rapid rise of energy tech 00:00:54.763 --> 00:00:57.766 from how the companies in this space differ from traditional venture backed 00:00:57.807 --> 00:01:01.895 tech companies to the new power sources competing to fuel the data center boom. 00:01:02.020 --> 00:01:06.066 So Scott energy tech is a broad and rapidly evolving space. 00:01:06.232 --> 00:01:09.110 How would you define energy tech and how do these companies differ 00:01:09.110 --> 00:01:12.363 from your traditional VC backed tech companies? 00:01:12.739 --> 00:01:14.783 Well, like you said, energy tech is very broad. 00:01:14.783 --> 00:01:15.867 It covers a lot of things. 00:01:15.867 --> 00:01:19.746 It can cover software that's servicing the upstream oil and gas industry 00:01:19.788 --> 00:01:23.875 or other energy transition technologies all the way to the technologies 00:01:23.917 --> 00:01:28.546 themselves, whether it be things like geothermal, solar or servicing data 00:01:28.588 --> 00:01:29.214 centers. 00:01:29.255 --> 00:01:32.550 As far as how it differs from typical venture backed companies, 00:01:32.801 --> 00:01:34.677 the software companies maybe not so much. 00:01:34.677 --> 00:01:39.808 But the heart technology companies, they have a lot of different sources 00:01:39.849 --> 00:01:41.851 of funding that they can seek, and there's different types 00:01:41.851 --> 00:01:44.521 of funding for different strategies for these companies. 00:01:44.521 --> 00:01:45.730 You know, for instance, 00:01:45.730 --> 00:01:49.109 they might want venture capital to begin with, but down the line, 00:01:49.150 --> 00:01:50.610 it may be better to seek 00:01:50.652 --> 00:01:53.196 other types of finance, whether it's government loans and grants. 00:01:53.196 --> 00:01:56.574 It could be more project finance and private capital that you wouldn't 00:01:56.616 --> 00:01:59.786 typically see at traditional venture backed companies, you know. 00:01:59.828 --> 00:02:02.872 To that end, you know, the AI and data center 00:02:03.164 --> 00:02:07.085 boom is, as you mentioned earlier, is has is huge. 00:02:07.168 --> 00:02:10.964 Like, what are you seeing as far as the technologies that are helping 00:02:11.005 --> 00:02:14.175 to service the data center and AI What we're currently 00:02:14.217 --> 00:02:17.971 seeing is a real shift in how data center developers think about power. 00:02:18.304 --> 00:02:21.724 You know, gone are the days where they're exclusively relying on the grid for power 00:02:21.766 --> 00:02:26.146 and more and more relying on themselves to control the power directly. 00:02:26.187 --> 00:02:29.524 And this is primarily because the grid is not sustainable 00:02:29.566 --> 00:02:32.527 for the high demand, largely driven by AI. 00:02:32.569 --> 00:02:36.656 You have transmission and interconnection constraints that are causing 00:02:36.698 --> 00:02:39.951 significant delays and putting projects online and causing 00:02:39.993 --> 00:02:43.830 power reliability concerns for data centers. 00:02:44.372 --> 00:02:48.459 From a technology perspective, we're seeing a lot of interest in fuel cells 00:02:48.501 --> 00:02:52.338 because they're deployed relatively quickly at the at the site. 00:02:52.380 --> 00:02:54.424 We're doing a lot of deals in that space. 00:02:54.465 --> 00:02:57.677 We're also seeing a significant resurgence in natural gas. 00:02:57.844 --> 00:03:03.183 From a technology perspective, it's the way they're deploying the natural gas, 00:03:03.224 --> 00:03:07.937 moving from a centralized generation model to individual units on site 00:03:07.979 --> 00:03:11.774 to deploy the power officially and directly to data center. 00:03:11.941 --> 00:03:15.945 Renewables and battery storage continues to remain firmly in the power mix, 00:03:15.987 --> 00:03:17.280 but those are often coupled 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:21.201 with other power sources to deliver a continuous power solution. 00:03:21.242 --> 00:03:23.786 And finally, for the long term. 00:03:23.828 --> 00:03:25.038 You mentioned geothermal. 00:03:25.079 --> 00:03:28.458 We're seeing a lot of interest in geothermal into a greater extent. 00:03:28.499 --> 00:03:32.837 Nuclear, as long as they can provide sustainable power in a continuous manner 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:36.049 because of their firm carbon free baseload. 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:36.925 And in addition 00:03:36.925 --> 00:03:41.304 to those technologies, we're also seeing long duration battery storage 00:03:41.346 --> 00:03:45.808 and microgrid solutions that are helping fuel the data center boom. 00:03:45.850 --> 00:03:47.644 Yeah, I think one of the things that's interesting 00:03:47.644 --> 00:03:51.981 about all these new technologies is that unlike what we may have seen 00:03:52.023 --> 00:03:53.816 with traditional oil and gas or energy companies 00:03:53.816 --> 00:03:56.444 and how they raise money and the entrepreneurs in that field, 00:03:56.444 --> 00:04:00.365 it looks a lot more like a Silicon Valley-style company 00:04:00.406 --> 00:04:02.200 for a lot of these technologies. technologies. 00:04:02.242 --> 00:04:05.453 But and we'll talk about this, but they're running into the headwinds 00:04:05.495 --> 00:04:08.456 of, well, what type of investor do I need for my company? 00:04:08.498 --> 00:04:11.793 Or and are they willing to make a venture style investment? 00:04:11.834 --> 00:04:12.043 Yeah. 00:04:12.085 --> 00:04:16.589 And I think one of the the unique points about that is just the revenues, right. 00:04:16.673 --> 00:04:18.716 the data center market has become very attractive 00:04:18.716 --> 00:04:21.177 from a commercial and financing perspective. 00:04:21.219 --> 00:04:25.473 You have significant immediate demand coupled with highly creditworthy 00:04:25.515 --> 00:04:31.187 counterparties that are seeking long term, you know, customer contracts. 00:04:31.229 --> 00:04:31.646 Right. 00:04:31.688 --> 00:04:33.022 And so from a technology company 00:04:33.064 --> 00:04:37.527 who's not used to this, you know, continuous and consistent revenues. 00:04:37.568 --> 00:04:39.654 This is, you know, a revelation. 00:04:39.654 --> 00:04:41.072 And from an investor perspective, 00:04:41.114 --> 00:04:44.784 because you have the more constant contracted cash flows, 00:04:44.826 --> 00:04:48.746 you're seeing an influx of infrastructure funds, particularly with fuel cells. 00:04:48.788 --> 00:04:51.708 You're seeing private equity funds, particularly with geothermal 00:04:51.708 --> 00:04:54.627 and then for nuclear in a host of the other technologies, 00:04:54.669 --> 00:04:59.757 you're seeing a significant demand for the public capital markets, primarily 00:04:59.799 --> 00:05:05.305 because cost to fund develop these power solutions on site is significant. 00:05:05.471 --> 00:05:06.597 Yeah, that's a great point. 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:08.850 The data centers have become just sort of the end 00:05:08.891 --> 00:05:11.144 all be all of a lot of what we're doing right now. 00:05:11.144 --> 00:05:11.602 In fact, 00:05:11.644 --> 00:05:15.606 we're seeing a lot of technologies and technologists that maybe 00:05:15.648 --> 00:05:20.236 we're in other fields starting to pivot into the data center space. 00:05:20.361 --> 00:05:22.655 You know, what are your thoughts on that? 00:05:22.655 --> 00:05:23.197 And like, 00:05:23.239 --> 00:05:27.785 you know, maybe give a couple examples of what you've seen and how that's going. 00:05:27.994 --> 00:05:28.202 Yeah. 00:05:28.244 --> 00:05:32.540 Piggybacking off our prior discussion, you know, the revenue 00:05:32.874 --> 00:05:36.377 generation, revenue certainty from these long term contracted 00:05:36.419 --> 00:05:40.256 cash flows, right, is pushing many of these technologies into the space. 00:05:40.298 --> 00:05:45.011 In examples, fuel cells, fuel cells has historically been an on site 00:05:45.053 --> 00:05:48.806 niche power solution for industrial companies. 00:05:48.848 --> 00:05:52.185 Now it is front of the lines on site power for data centers 00:05:52.268 --> 00:05:55.396 take to a lesser extent geothermal, which utilizes oil 00:05:55.438 --> 00:05:58.900 and gas techniques, which has now moved into this industry as well. 00:05:59.275 --> 00:06:02.445 as a result of these technology companies pivoting to the data center 00:06:02.570 --> 00:06:05.448 market, coupled with these contracted revenues, 00:06:05.490 --> 00:06:08.868 as we mentioned, we're seeing significant interest from infrastructure funds, 00:06:08.951 --> 00:06:12.663 private equity funds, the public markets, as well as family offices. 00:06:12.830 --> 00:06:13.873 Right. 00:06:13.915 --> 00:06:15.458 These new investors, 00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:19.712 you know, have a more conservative profile in your typical tech investor. 00:06:19.754 --> 00:06:24.675 How does that changing or how do the terms look different because of that? 00:06:24.717 --> 00:06:25.134 Yeah. 00:06:25.176 --> 00:06:27.804 James, it's interesting because you're right. 00:06:27.804 --> 00:06:31.432 The venture investors there's a there's a specific model there. 00:06:31.474 --> 00:06:32.350 They you know, it's 00:06:32.350 --> 00:06:33.393 not an understanding, 00:06:33.393 --> 00:06:33.976 but they know 00:06:33.976 --> 00:06:35.520 that some of their investments aren't going to work out 00:06:35.520 --> 00:06:37.021 and they're going to write them down to zero, 00:06:37.021 --> 00:06:38.314 but they're going to have hopefully 00:06:38.314 --> 00:06:41.359 enough home runs and grand slams that it makes up for the difference. 00:06:42.193 --> 00:06:44.529 At the end of the day, these are still technology companies 00:06:44.529 --> 00:06:47.824 with speculative technologies that need money to grow 00:06:47.949 --> 00:06:51.285 and to advance their technology to get the revenue you're talking about. 00:06:51.452 --> 00:06:55.540 But these new investors, whether it's infrastructure funds, 00:06:55.581 --> 00:06:56.582 whether it's private equity 00:06:56.624 --> 00:06:59.585 dabbling and minority and venture investments or family offices 00:06:59.585 --> 00:07:02.839 that are used to investing in upstream oil and gas that are 00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:06.175 now looking at these technology companies, they've got a much more conservative 00:07:06.217 --> 00:07:10.263 profile, as you said, they they can't have losers in their portfolio. 00:07:10.304 --> 00:07:14.392 And so as a result, the negotiation, especially if it's early money 00:07:14.434 --> 00:07:17.812 in a company, becomes pretty difficult sometimes for the entrepreneur 00:07:17.854 --> 00:07:22.442 who's expecting a, you know, very simple in a national venture 00:07:22.483 --> 00:07:25.778 capital association style term sheet from their first investor. 00:07:25.820 --> 00:07:27.238 And so what we've got to do 00:07:27.238 --> 00:07:29.115 is, you know, the attorney to the company and sometimes 00:07:29.115 --> 00:07:31.159 the attorney to the investor is help play. 00:07:31.159 --> 00:07:33.035 Rosetta Stone is like, we've got an entrepreneur 00:07:33.035 --> 00:07:36.205 that expects very light terms, very like lazy 00:07:36.247 --> 00:07:39.917 fare control or by the investor. 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:42.670 And we've got an investor who needs to make sure that this company 00:07:42.670 --> 00:07:46.674 is going to work, And so we're talking to these entrepreneurs and saying, 00:07:46.716 --> 00:07:49.677 look, you want the money from these folks that know the industry. 00:07:49.719 --> 00:07:51.262 You're going to have to take some terms 00:07:51.262 --> 00:07:54.765 and some provisions that maybe you would not have gotten from a West Coast VC. 00:07:55.266 --> 00:07:57.226 Similarly, when we have talked to the investors 00:07:57.226 --> 00:07:59.520 and we have to say you're investing in an entrepreneur 00:07:59.562 --> 00:08:02.023 that is putting their technology on the line, 00:08:02.064 --> 00:08:05.151 this isn't an upstream oil and gas development 00:08:05.193 --> 00:08:07.069 that people have done 100 times. 00:08:07.069 --> 00:08:08.779 They don't want to give up their technology 00:08:08.779 --> 00:08:10.948 and control of their company on this initial investment. 00:08:10.948 --> 00:08:12.617 So we've got to come to the middle here 00:08:12.617 --> 00:08:16.162 and kind of understand what both parties want to get to. Yes. 00:08:16.287 --> 00:08:21.167 And to figure out exactly how we are going to, you know, get a deal done. 00:08:21.209 --> 00:08:23.544 And sometimes the deals don't get done as a result. 00:08:23.544 --> 00:08:25.254 But the other thing I'll add to 00:08:25.296 --> 00:08:28.508 that is there's an important for these energy tech companies to be able 00:08:28.549 --> 00:08:31.844 to plug into the investors you talk about, because at the end of the day, 00:08:31.886 --> 00:08:34.931 whether it's a strategic investor, which is another type of investor 00:08:34.972 --> 00:08:37.391 we didn't talk about, or it's these infrastructure funds 00:08:37.391 --> 00:08:40.436 that have been in the energy industry for years. 00:08:40.478 --> 00:08:41.646 They know the supply chain. 00:08:41.646 --> 00:08:44.607 They're the ones that are going to be able to plug the entrepreneur into the 00:08:44.649 --> 00:08:48.277 the vendors and the customers that they need to create the revenue 00:08:48.319 --> 00:08:51.405 that's going to be required to get returns for everybody. 00:08:51.489 --> 00:08:53.074 Yeah. And I'll say I'll piggyback off that. 00:08:53.074 --> 00:08:55.660 I'll say particularly as these investments scale. Right? 00:08:55.701 --> 00:08:56.827 And you've got contracted revenues. 00:08:56.827 --> 00:08:59.121 You’re bringing infrastructure funds. Right. 00:08:59.163 --> 00:09:01.958 We're only going to invest if you have the contractor revenues there. 00:09:01.999 --> 00:09:05.628 I think one of the key elements they bring is the relationships with project 00:09:05.670 --> 00:09:06.754 financing, Right? 00:09:06.796 --> 00:09:08.756 Because none of these projects get done with equity alone. 00:09:08.798 --> 00:09:11.509 They all require project financing and have those relationships. 00:09:11.509 --> 00:09:16.639 The sophistication, of how to interface with those financers, is critical. 00:09:16.681 --> 00:09:16.889 Yeah. 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:19.850 And I think it's important to understand with these energy tech 00:09:19.892 --> 00:09:24.939 technologies that are, again, more hard science, that are going to require 00:09:24.981 --> 00:09:28.985 a lot of capital to build the facilities, to build the infrastructure needed 00:09:29.026 --> 00:09:30.611 to create the revenue. 00:09:30.611 --> 00:09:34.490 You know, think geothermal, think, you know, 00:09:34.574 --> 00:09:37.535 there's a lot of different technologies fuel cells, fuel cells, anything 00:09:37.577 --> 00:09:41.330 that's got to manufacture or or develop or produce. 00:09:41.956 --> 00:09:43.666 It doesn't make sense for venture capital 00:09:43.666 --> 00:09:45.710 to be the thing that's funding that in the long run. 00:09:45.710 --> 00:09:47.587 And so the venture capital 00:09:47.587 --> 00:09:51.632 is there to maybe get you to the pilot and get that pilot project off. 00:09:51.674 --> 00:09:56.596 But if you're funding, I don't know, a $500 million plant 00:09:56.637 --> 00:10:00.683 with venture capital that's really diluted to the founders in the early investors. 00:10:00.725 --> 00:10:03.561 And there's better ways to do that with the private capital. 00:10:03.603 --> 00:10:04.979 We're talking about. 00:10:05.021 --> 00:10:09.025 So Scott, as we've discussed the various funding alternatives available, 00:10:09.317 --> 00:10:10.192 how should companies 00:10:10.234 --> 00:10:13.696 be thinking of the various alternatives as they grow energy tech? 00:10:14.405 --> 00:10:14.739 Yeah, sure. 00:10:14.780 --> 00:10:17.908 I mean, I think one of the things that's very important from the beginning 00:10:17.950 --> 00:10:19.952 is, you know, getting the right professionals. 00:10:19.952 --> 00:10:24.165 And yes, that includes lawyers, but it also includes the right finance, 00:10:24.540 --> 00:10:27.293 financial advisors, the right technical advisors, 00:10:27.293 --> 00:10:32.131 and getting them on board quickly and and getting the right team in place. 00:10:32.173 --> 00:10:34.800 Because what you're trying to build is very complex. 00:10:34.842 --> 00:10:38.137 You know, I think from my perspective, I've got two different clients right now 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:39.263 that are in this data 00:10:39.305 --> 00:10:43.309 center space and simultaneously we're trying raise venture capital. 00:10:43.351 --> 00:10:46.270 At the same time, we're trying prepare for a project finance 00:10:46.270 --> 00:10:50.316 of their first facility, and that's got to run hand in hand. 00:10:50.358 --> 00:10:52.276 You can't do them in two separate vacuums. 00:10:52.276 --> 00:10:57.073 We have two teams working on them for certain, but it's got to work together. 00:10:57.323 --> 00:11:01.243 You can't raise money here and raise money there and not have it 00:11:01.285 --> 00:11:02.078 speak to each other, 00:11:02.078 --> 00:11:05.122 because you've got to make sure that what we're doing at the project 00:11:05.164 --> 00:11:09.502 is going to be viable for the top, so we can do more projects later on. 00:11:09.543 --> 00:11:13.297 And I think one of the things that we bring to the table at Latham 00:11:13.339 --> 00:11:17.301 that is having that expertise, expertise both in venture capital 00:11:17.343 --> 00:11:22.056 as well as the project finance, the commercial agreements, 00:11:22.098 --> 00:11:24.100 these offtake agreements that a lot of these tech companies 00:11:24.141 --> 00:11:26.227 need to to show that they're going to be able 00:11:26.227 --> 00:11:29.438 to generate the revenue once the once the plant or whatever has been built. 00:11:29.522 --> 00:11:30.815 You know, doing all of that 00:11:30.815 --> 00:11:33.859 in parallel is something that is very unique to our firm, I think. 00:11:33.901 --> 00:11:38.447 And, you know, having whether it's the global aspect of it 00:11:38.489 --> 00:11:42.284 and having offices all over the world or but just the expertise generally. 00:11:42.326 --> 00:11:44.954 I mean, even in Texas, where we have a very strong 00:11:44.995 --> 00:11:48.833 emerging company practice to pair with our energy and infrastructure practice, 00:11:48.874 --> 00:11:53.295 it's something that allows us to fully service our clients across the country. 00:11:53.421 --> 00:11:53.671 You're right. 00:11:53.713 --> 00:11:56.674 I mean, you have to take a fully holistic approach, right? 00:11:56.716 --> 00:12:00.803 So coupling with our industry expertise and our in our various practice groups, 00:12:00.845 --> 00:12:01.887 right, so you can solve 00:12:01.887 --> 00:12:05.808 not just one piece of the puzzle, but you can, you can provide solutions 00:12:05.850 --> 00:12:09.520 for the entire project lifestyle in a commercially feasible manner. 00:12:09.687 --> 00:12:10.104 Correct. 00:12:10.146 --> 00:12:15.484 I mean, if you if you, One of the things that we've found working with, 00:12:16.193 --> 00:12:18.487 since I've been at Latham is how synergistic 00:12:18.529 --> 00:12:22.116 the energy and infrastructure group has been with the emerging company group. 00:12:22.158 --> 00:12:26.370 And how we've had deals that we've had to call 00:12:26.412 --> 00:12:29.582 that that group up and talk to them about, 00:12:30.207 --> 00:12:33.210 types of project finance or other fundings that we don't typically see. 00:12:33.252 --> 00:12:36.547 And similarly, a lot of the investors that those groups are working with 00:12:36.589 --> 00:12:39.717 are doing more venture style funding that, you know, 00:12:39.842 --> 00:12:43.888 you want to have a strong emerging company group to, to be involved with 00:12:43.929 --> 00:12:47.349 so they can go into the company and negotiate against company counsel 00:12:47.391 --> 00:12:50.352 in a way that fits that type of transaction. 00:12:50.394 --> 00:12:51.479 It's really important 00:12:51.479 --> 00:12:55.024 that you have the right type of lawyers negotiating the right type of transaction, 00:12:55.065 --> 00:12:58.110 because a lot of different things can go wrong if you don't both, 00:12:58.152 --> 00:12:59.361 you know, for good and for bad. 00:12:59.361 --> 00:13:02.364 But it's it's something that you really want to pay attention to. 00:13:02.406 --> 00:13:04.033 And that's something we're able to provide. 00:13:04.033 --> 00:13:05.409 And Scott these are all great points. 00:13:05.451 --> 00:13:09.538 And and the need for an integrated platform is because these transactions 00:13:09.580 --> 00:13:10.498 are highly complex. 00:13:10.498 --> 00:13:12.625 there's not a single well-defined playbook. 00:13:12.625 --> 00:13:15.669 We're dealing with transactions at the intersection of infrastructure, 00:13:15.711 --> 00:13:19.340 energy, technology, all with different regulatory frameworks. 00:13:19.423 --> 00:13:22.301 You know, capital profiles, risk appetites. 00:13:22.343 --> 00:13:25.346 in a single transaction, you can be dealing dealing with a, 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:30.810 you know, evolving energy regulation, a project finance considerations, M&A 00:13:30.851 --> 00:13:36.148 dynamics, IP concerns, and highly complex bespoke commercial agreements. 00:13:36.565 --> 00:13:37.066 Right. 00:13:37.107 --> 00:13:41.403 And so additionally, all this is happening at real time right. 00:13:41.445 --> 00:13:46.492 And so the concerns about risk allocation, bank ability and ensuring you 00:13:46.534 --> 00:13:48.661 putting together arrangements that can hold up through 00:13:48.661 --> 00:13:52.373 the entire course of the project require a holistic approach. 00:13:52.623 --> 00:13:53.123 that's fair. 00:13:53.123 --> 00:13:55.584 And I think one of the things that you use the word bespoke 00:13:55.626 --> 00:13:58.712 and as to the commercial agreements, but I think you can apply that to the 00:13:58.754 --> 00:14:02.883 entire transactions or set of transactions that each company needs. 00:14:02.925 --> 00:14:06.679 And I think especially for the people in my world in venture 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.014 where things can be a little wrote sometimes, you know, 00:14:09.056 --> 00:14:11.517 we're going to use these docs and we're not going to veer from them. 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:14.728 It's sometimes a hard sell, but it's really important for, 00:14:14.770 --> 00:14:19.024 for entrepreneurs, I think, to to understand that if I've got this new 00:14:19.108 --> 00:14:22.111 sometimes first of its kind technology, 00:14:22.611 --> 00:14:25.656 the, the transactions that are going to be required for me to commercialize 00:14:25.698 --> 00:14:29.743 it are very likely going to be also first of its kind in a lot of ways, 00:14:29.785 --> 00:14:31.328 when you combine all the different ways 00:14:31.328 --> 00:14:33.998 that I'm going to have to raise money and again, 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:37.042 bringing a group of lawyers or a group of experts 00:14:37.084 --> 00:14:40.588 or a group of professionals together that can see around the corner 00:14:40.629 --> 00:14:44.550 and figure out how to work the entrepreneur piece of it 00:14:44.592 --> 00:14:47.761 into the project finance piece of it with the, 00:14:47.803 --> 00:14:50.389 you know, the regulatory piece of it and know how to bring it. 00:14:50.389 --> 00:14:53.601 All that together is just very important given the complexity, James, 00:14:53.893 --> 00:14:54.685 You mentioned earlier. 00:14:54.727 --> 00:14:56.896 let's look into the future a little bit. James. 00:14:56.937 --> 00:15:01.317 What technologies do you think are the best position to succeed? 00:15:01.358 --> 00:15:02.902 And similarly 00:15:02.943 --> 00:15:06.447 with respect to data centers themselves, where do you see that industry going? 00:15:06.488 --> 00:15:10.367 And what do you think the most successful technologies are going to be Yeah. 00:15:10.409 --> 00:15:13.996 So taking a step back and we mentioned this at the beginning of the podcast. 00:15:14.288 --> 00:15:19.668 You know, one of the major bottlenecks in the data center market is the of power. 00:15:19.710 --> 00:15:21.545 It's not demand. Right. 00:15:21.587 --> 00:15:24.757 And you couple that with the continuing 00:15:24.798 --> 00:15:29.011 evolving demand landscape you know more power dense chips right. 00:15:29.053 --> 00:15:30.596 New advanced cooling technologies 00:15:30.638 --> 00:15:35.684 to the need for power continues to evolve and increase. 00:15:35.726 --> 00:15:40.064 So in the short term, it's technologies that can be deployed quickly to develop 00:15:40.105 --> 00:15:43.651 to deliver reliable power, natural gas, 00:15:44.902 --> 00:15:48.155 distributable power solutions, fuel cells and solar. 00:15:48.364 --> 00:15:51.241 Over time, you're going to see a transition 00:15:51.283 --> 00:15:56.372 not not away from those technologies, but also towards more long term durable 00:15:56.872 --> 00:16:01.877 technologies that have a low carbon profile, geothermal into a greater extent, 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:05.881 hopefully nuclear, in particular with nuclear. 00:16:05.965 --> 00:16:09.635 The the great interest is around fusion because of its low 00:16:09.802 --> 00:16:14.473 waste profile, coupled with potential for a reliable, consistent clean fuel. 00:16:14.515 --> 00:16:19.436 But regardless, it's not going to be a one winner approach, right? 00:16:19.478 --> 00:16:22.564 The race for these data center developers is to develop 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:27.069 data centers quickly and efficiently with continuous supply. 00:16:27.111 --> 00:16:30.364 That's going to require hybrid solutions using a combination 00:16:30.406 --> 00:16:33.575 of these technologies and technologies we haven't yet invented. 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:33.951 Great. 00:16:33.951 --> 00:16:36.829 And I think what that means is you sort of bring it all to a circle. 00:16:36.829 --> 00:16:41.250 These technologies are being developed by entrepreneurs at these technology 00:16:41.291 --> 00:16:45.004 companies that are, again, they look like what we think of 00:16:45.045 --> 00:16:48.007 as venture backed companies, but they are getting into an industry 00:16:48.048 --> 00:16:51.010 that is very, very different than what we think of 00:16:51.010 --> 00:16:53.512 when we think of venture capital and as a result. 00:16:53.554 --> 00:16:57.725 You know, I think being able to couple the 00:16:57.975 --> 00:17:00.644 the funds that we've seen traditionally in the energy industry 00:17:00.644 --> 00:17:05.357 with the entrepreneurs and their ideas will really help grow and help things, 00:17:05.399 --> 00:17:07.735 help the technologies in the nuclear space, 00:17:07.735 --> 00:17:12.114 in the geothermal space, in all of these spaces thrive 00:17:12.156 --> 00:17:16.243 and allow these entrepreneurs to really build their companies 00:17:16.285 --> 00:17:20.330 and plug into the supply chain in a way that maybe they couldn't do that before. 00:17:20.748 --> 00:17:21.832 Completely agree. 00:17:21.874 --> 00:17:24.543 And with that, I think our podcast is to end. 00:17:24.585 --> 00:17:26.128 Thank you. Scott. Thanks, James.